Breeders’ Cup Deep Dive Handicapping Show with Olczyk, Stone, Gramm & Tammaro [VIDEO]

YouTube provided Transcript for the Breeders' Cup Deep Dive Show

[Music] Hello one and all and welcome to the 

2025 Breeders Cup Deep Dive Handicapping Show. Nick Tamro here from Twin Spires 

joined by an esteemed panel of handicappers, betterers, and everyone else that wants to be involved in this. 

So, you will see me, of course, in the top left corner of our small Brady Bunch quad box, as NFL Red Zone fans would 

probably call it. Immediately to my left, Eddie Ol. Eddie, welcome in. You'll be joining us uh joining the 

racing world on the NBC broadcast this weekend. What I wanted to ask you was in your coaching and playing days, how 

important was being close to an OTB on Breeders Cup weekend? 

[Laughter] Uh, let's see. Well, first off, great to 

be with you guys. Hopefully everybody can hear me. Uh, I've had a few technical issues here going on on my 

end, so hopefully you guys can hear me nice, clean, and clear. Um, I think silence is probably golden when it comes 

to uh I got a chance to sneak away back in the day day on maybe a game day. Uh, 

maybe for sure when I was playing I think I might have snuck out every in a while, but uh never when I was standing

behind the bench and if I'm holding a microphone there's a pretty damn good chance I'm somewhere playing versus now 

in my uh in my real gig after my playing and coaching days. Man after our hearts for sure. So, if 

you notice that Eddie is a few seconds delayed from when I stopped talking, that's the FCC making sure that he 

hasn't said anything inappropriate. So, don't worry about any of that. Below me is 2020 Breeders Cup Betting Challenge 

winner Marshall Graham. Marshall, the question that everybody wants to know in terms of 2020 Breeders Cup replays, what 

have you watched more, Monoy Girl or Authentic? You know, I I probably have watched 

authentic more, but I don't you know, I I I tend to watch replays of uh you 

know, maybe maybe my winners, whether it be a a cheap nickel claimer, more than I've I've watched uh more than I've 

watched that race. Well, it'll not won't change the fact that it helped boost you to a multiple 

$100,000 score. So, congrats again. Of course, fiveyear anniversary of it. You wouldn't be the first one to win it 

twice. It has been won twice before. So why don't you just go ahead and do it? Yeah, because 2020 is getting 2020 is

getting to be a long time ago, right? So it's it's about time that they make another little run. Better to be a husband than it never 

was. But Travis Stone is also joining us in the bottom right corner, the voice of Churchill Downs. Travis, first Breeders 

Cup memory for you. Let's have it. Uh 1995, it was pouring rain. My parents 

and our family drove down from upstate New York to Belmont. I didn't sleep the entire night before. My mom was livid. I 

woke up every every 30 minutes. Um, but I'll never forget when my flag caught 

Golden Attraction and Car Raphaela right on the wire and uh I was in I was hooked. 

30 years ago, of course, inside information with that blowout win in Cigar capped his perfect 95 season. So 

now you know everybody here a little bit more in depth perhaps than you did two minutes ago. And we're going to get 

right into the handicapping. So, this is going to be somewhat informal in that I'll obviously ask everybody questions about these races. We're going to talk 

about the turf, classic, and mile. And then each of the four of us will highlight one horse that we're looking 

forward to uh backing over the course of the two-day event. I think we'll get a little representation from each day as 

well as we go through that. The $5 million Breeders Cup Turf is the first race that we will take a look at on the 

agenda. It is obviously on Saturday afternoon and it goes as race number eight. It'll kick off the uh late pick 

five, the final pick five of the weekend. And we've got a pretty tremendous group assembled as expected 

when you're giving away this kind of purse. So Eddie, I want to start with you. I'll start by asking you for or 

against Minihawk and if against, who do you like? 

Well, I mean, full disclosure, I I think we all as handicappers, we all have 

strengths and weaknesses. um at least most of us do. I I know I know what my 

weaknesses are. My weaknesses are on Friday in uh a lot of the European type 

of and then also the long distance races where I've always seem to have a 

difficult time of trying to I don't say decipher the class 

difference between maybe the races over here or the races across the pond. But um you know the these type of races here 

I try I try to watch where the money's going. I try to talk to as many people as I can and um I mean it sure seems 

that uh that uh you know Mini Hawk and Eden O'Brien and Aiden's Army 

is certainly uh at the top of the list and and I always find it very 

challenging and I'm not sure how you guys feel of of the the different types of of classes of races that uh you when

you do get to the Breeders Cup of trying to compare uh you know a race at Saratoga and then all of a sudden you're 

looking at a race at York or the Kura. So, um I I I think I'm going to try I 

think you have to use mini hawk, but I I think that you have to be if you're playing in some exotic races trying to 

hit a double, maybe trying to hit a pick three or pick five, maybe go three or four deep, Nick, and and take your 

chances that maybe somebody doesn't trip out and somebody does and then maybe instead of getting an eight to five or 

seven to five home, maybe get a six or seven and a one shot. So, uh, I'll 

probably try on our NBC show to probably try to beat Minihawk, but I think the jury's still out on which direction I'm 

going to go in full honesty here. Marshall, I think a lot of people are framing this as a two-horse race, obviously, between Minihawk and Rebels 

Romance. Do you see it as that, or are you going to try and and maybe look elsewhere for a little bit more value? 

Uh, I think I think those are the the two toughest horses. I again, I sort of agree with Eddie on these on these on 

these type of races. This is very tough race. It's it's sort of incomprehensible when we think about US racing, the fact 

that this race is not only full of three-year-olds, but that the the prohibitive favorite is a three-year-old 

Philly and she doesn't get the huge break break in weight like she does overseas, but we've seen found won this 

race at uh at Keeland as a three-year-old Philly um a decade ago. 

So, we've seen this before. It's just it's hard for us to imagine three-year-old Philly coming out and winning the classic, for example, or 

being prohibitive favorite. But, you know, her her arc um I thought her run was really impressive and when she was 

um you know, and I thought she she ran she ran it she she ran hard late uh they 

opened up quite a good distance on the rest of the field. Um and so, you know, her jumping from three-year-old Phillies 

in the Irish Oaks to to older Phillies in the Yorkshire Oaks to the to the Ark. 

Um with Aiden O'Brien, uh you know, I think she's going to be tough to beat. 

And so, you know, probably I will focus on her. It's not one I want to be heavily invested in. I am kind of 

interested in in um in Gold Phoenix underneath. I mean, what you know, I 

can't find any excuses with any of any of his races. He's always been a horse that's shown up on Breeders Cup Day, has

run well at Delmare, five night at Delmare. This horse likes to likes to run. Last year was the top finishing 

American. And, you know, I don't I don't think he can win, but he's going to be a big number. and, you know, maybe king 

him in third behind um behind uh behind Minihawk in some of the Euros. Maybe 

that's how I'm going to approach this race, but it's it's um again, not one that uh would be, you know, one I'm 

going to be too heavily invested in. So, Travis, I wanted to ask you, walk us through a little bit of how you handicap 

a race like this. Clearly trying to decipher European form. Are you really digging into a lot of replays, utilizing

some speed figures that also have international capabilities? and ultimately doing going through that 

process, where did you land? Yeah, I um I do replays first. So, I 

spent a lot of the time between races today at Churchill just watching replays and working through the careers of a lot 

of these European horses running this weekend. Um, and in terms of this race and where that uh caused me to land is, 

I am going to take a small shot against her. I have tremendous respect, but I think there's some stuff going on here 

that makes this race a little bit interesting. for one, despite the fact it being 12 furongs, I think there's a 

chance it's a very legitimate pace. Uh Salawi is very quick. Um in fact is is 

almost rabbit quick like has real keen early speed and uh at a at a track like 

Delmare that can get very dangerous and that can either cause them to gap out or some horses kind of they try and back 

down that pace and and they get stuck wide and I'm worried that Minihawk might get a little bit wide. My other read on 

her was that was a very stiff run in the Ark. It was a deep, tiring surface. They 

went toe-to-toe and duled right to the wire. A thrilling race. Arc's one of my favorite races year round. Um, and I 

wonder now you put her on her plane, you ship her around the world and now you face some of the best again on an 

unfamiliar course with some scenarios that maybe works against her. I don't know if I I really want to totally take 

a short price, but it's not like this is a huge stand against 

Eddie. Did you have something? Hey guys, I just want to make I think people should understand 

is that that race the Salawi ran at Woodbmine that was almost three turns 

because they've been running on the inner turf there since they shut down the EP Taylor. So that's something to, 

you know, to take into the handicapping aspect of it where the tighter turns on 

the inner turf at Woodbine. That's something that you should think about. Not only this weekend at Delmare, but 

when you are watching and and betting on races that you see maybe Woodbine shippers that come down, you got to 

check out when the exact date was when they stopped running on EP Taylor, the one turn turf course up there. So I 

agree with Travis. Uh, I think the seven is going to give Rebels romance and 

redistricting, you're going to see those three numbers and names up there right off the bat and faster they go, I'm sure 

everybody sitting in the back seat are going to be awfully excited about that. So, no, I think that's a key point. 

Actually, the configuration ends up being almost identical to Delmare. The stretch being a little bit longer, but it's a 78 sur turf course obviously with 

pretty tight turns all in all, which which is noteworthy. And I didn't realize until would mine mile day that 

they were running on the inner turf and looked at the PPS and was like why aren't they running this on the EP Taylor? Uh but you know alas it does 

give you some I I guess a little bit of indication what kind of stuff can happen here. So I'm going to make a case for the three Amalok and this horse is 

coming out of a race that a long time ago I said to myself when I can I'm going to bet horses coming out of the Iris St. Ledger. I totally understand 

he's lesser. He has to run better. what we've seen and uh two Breeders Cup winners. Yeah, they're getting to be a 

little while ago, but both Red Rocks and Conduit came out of the St. Ledger. That's a three-year-old race run at a 

mile and three/4ers. I've always said I'm a sucker for cutbacks. Who doesn't love the 14 to 12 furong cutback, right?

So, this is a horse that'll have no problem with staying power. I think he's helped by a fast pace. I like the 

connections that won Rafe Beckett won the Breeders Cup Turf Sprint last year and is going to use Ross Orion who gave 

Star Lust an unbelievable ride that day. This is a horse that drew well on the inside. He's going to be able to sit

back and make one run. I have all the respect in the world for Minihawk and Rebels Romance. I wouldn't really want 

to be beaten by either of them, but I have to bet Amaloc to win in here and and maybe try and get him on top in some 

of the exact. Rebels Romance is a horse that I've probably underappreciated in many ways. And when you start to dig 

into the pace figures on this horse, he's one up close when it's fast. He's come from off of it when it's slow. He 

just absolutely buried that field in the Joe Hershurf Classic last time and Frankie moved him probably six furongs 

too early and it just didn't matter. This horse is very very good. He clearly loves fast ground. Obviously, if Mini 

Hawk is beaten, it's likely to be by him, but uh this is a horse who I think is probably even better than a lot of us 

are are giving him credit for. Um Marshall, would you would you say that Rebels Romance and Mini Hawken in your 

opinion are on par with one another in terms of what you'd expect from them here? I think that's fair. I mean, I 

think they're the the two horses that beaten Rebels Romance again, he's done he's done nothing he's done nothing 

wrong. I mean, you know, he's Minihawk seems more like the now horse, but I mean, Rebels Romance hardly ever loses. 

Has won in oodles of money. Um, his turf classic was a glorified workout and 

those are okay horses behind them, but he just destroyed them. Yeah. So, um, you know, I I I see no I 

see no knocks and, um, I see no knocks. I just I I I'm thinking the Philly might 

be the now horse. U, but, uh, but yeah, I mean, look, the great thing is we have a 14 horse field. I think there, you 

know, unlike a lot of these other races that that we'll see, there are there are quite a few here which would really 

really have to drastically improve to um to get in the number and and certainly to win. I, you know, I think that that 

the the difference in the gap between most of these Americans and the Europeans just seems to be to widen as 

is we put less emphasis on on real turf route racing. And um and so that in that 

in that way, even though it's a big field, it really I think there's a smaller smaller number of horses that might win this race compared to a lot of 

our other Breeders Cup races um these over these two days. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of big priced horses in 

here and the Breeders Cup caps the morning line at 30 to1 with the exception of the Rabbit this year. Um Travis Marshall brought up Gold Phoenix 

as an underneath type. Knowing a little bit about how you like to play, I know you like to find a price horse that you could potentially slide in. Anybody 

stick out to you in here that could potentially fill that role. Yeah, I mean I a couple of points to add 

on to what you said because I am too on number three Amalok and no, Nick and I did not uh convene on our selections 

ahead of time. If you go back and watch this horse's early career races, he's overcome quite a bit in some of those 

early races. I think there's a lot of talent there. And the one thing I'd add is that it feels like this was their 

target as opposed to just well, we finished off our European year. Let's go ahead and try the Breeders Cup. As 

instead off that June race, they waited until September. Nice little sharpener for this. So, I'm I'm very much so on 

board. Um, but yeah, my favorite way to play races is to key long shots and third and fourth and superfectas and 

trifectas and and sometimes they run better than that and you can really score and I think Gold Phoenix fits that 

that to a bill. I I I think this race gets a little bit hungry late and I think positions three and four and even 

maybe above that are kind of up for grabs and I'm looking to take Gold Phoenix and a little bit of Wimbledon 

Hawkeye as well who I think has really developed nicely as of late. I think 

both of them are are fairly reliable closers and the race is going to have some pace going to be big prices. A 

little bit worried that uh uh Marshall mentioned Gold Phoenix which tells me some other people are thinking about it too cuz you know Marshall is indeed a 

bit of a sharp. So that's uh that's concerning that the price might u kind of drift downward a little bit. But on 

the flip side I think everybody is thinking mini hawk and so I think her price goes down. Uh, so yeah, I'm 

looking to kind of reverse as I say, put that put them underneath Wimbledon Hawkeye and Gold Phoenix. 

Eddie, anybody else you wanted to touch on before we make our way to the classic? 

Uh, no. I just I thought maybe Cordova looked uh interesting if they 

did go overly quick. I mean, how can you I 

don't think you can ever turn down, you know, Charlie Applebee. So, that that that was one that I thought that if if 

it was going to be a quick phase. I I it going to be interesting how Delmare is playing. Obviously, they put up Thursday 

and you got the big day on Friday and then obviously the biggest day of them all on Saturday. So, it'll be interesting to see how the turf course 

was playing. I know just looking at some old notes from the the last meet at 

Delmare, they they had quite a few days. I think they had six of seven of the last turf phase that I tracked at least 

what I feel uh was very very favored to uh to forward horses where earlier in a 

meet it seemed like it was the other way around. So, uh, we'll see. You know, can 

you get an idea of how the track is playing in, uh, you know, in two full days and get ready just say because we're talking about Saturday. I think I 

think you can get an idea of it, but I would keep an eye on that. And if your speed is coming back in some legit races

there, uh, then maybe that's somewhere that might lean, but I but I thought number 10, El Cordovas, might be 

somebody interested that I would use uh, underneath uh, probably 

uh, you know, in Trifectas and Exactus. Yeah, I noticed I think it was an I 

don't remember who the interview was with, but Charlie Apple went out of his way to say that people were were sleeping on El Cordova a little bit and 

he was better than the chances that he was being given. I make a note to myself every Breeders Cup at Delmare to be very 

careful about betting horses that are going to need to make big long outside moves and are going to come from deep in the pack because I just think it's such 

a positionoriented turf course. But with that said, I've just basically made sure that we're going to have eight off the 

pace horses over the course of two days. So, let's move on, gentlemen, to the classic, the uh featured race obviously 

on this tremendous Breeders Cup Saturday. It goes as race number nine. Obviously, we'll start our conversation 

with Sovereignty being out. And no, I don't plan on us spending a great deal of time talking about a horse that's not

running, but he uh obviously suffered a bit of a shipping fever and Bill Mott mentioned it to the media yesterday. 

Unfortunately, his fever spiked again after he was treated with some antibiotics and thus he will not be able 

to run. Hopefully he is recuperating. I'm sure he's being very well taken care of and I'm sure many of us would ask for 

us to be as well taken care of when we have a fever as he is uh at this point. But uh hopefully we'll get to see the 

champ back in 2026. Alas, what that leaves us with is still a really evenly matched field of nine. I 

suppose an argument could be made too that it maybe is an even more competitive race without him if you were of the opinion that he just really 

towered over these horses. We now have a 5-2 favorite in fierceness. And just 

kicking it around a little bit. Marshall, I know you were somebody, we had spoken offline weeks ago who felt 

pretty strongly about Sovereignty's chances of winning this race. Does it affect your interest in betting or have 

you already pivoted to somebody and you're like, line him up, we're going after it? Well, I mean, I I was excited about 

betting sovereignty. I I was excited to see him run to to see whether he could secure his place in in history. I had, 

you know, I I sort of was working on the on the the hypothesis that he was the, 

you know, the best three-year-old maybe since American Pharaoh. Who knows? We'll never know. I mean, he, you know, it 

would have been interesting to see, but look, it leaves us with a still a very compelling race. We still have the three-year-olds against olders. Uh, and 

so, you know, I I think there's I think there's a lot here. Um, does it does it 

make things, you know, does it make it a does it make it, you know, a less less important race? Maybe. So, but we've got 

a very competitive race and I'm excited about betting it. I I like Ba. I am team three-year-olds. My whole approach to 

this was um was I like the three-year-olds and I think he's going to be the the price of all them and the 

most tactical. Uh I you know, I'm hopeful that he can be 10 to one. Uh you 

know, I'm willing to say that I think he ran big in the gym dandy. You know, I know that that that those that say 

Sovereignty wasn't even really cranking right by him, but if Sovereignty is a super horse, uh the Jim Dandy is is a 

solid performance from Basa. Maybe he moved forward in the Pennsylvania Derby. His speed figures, no matter what you 

look at, are compare well with the older horses. And I think he's going to fit um 

you know, I think he's going to be tractable and and hopefully fit fit Delmare well. And um again, is going to 

be the longest hopefully the longest price of of the bunch. So that's that's where I'm going um in what I think is 

now a more compelling race. Dr. Graham always a fan of what goes on in the city of brotherly love racing 

wise. So no surprise there that his loyalty lands with Ba. Travis, where are your hard-earned dollars going in the 

classic? I mean, not to be um lame, they're on Baya as well right now. I I tried to 

make a case for Antiquarian. We can talk about him briefly in a moment. The one thing I'll say about Besa to sort of add 

to what Marshall said is I went back and watched the Belmont the race where everybody kind of wrote him off as being

he's not even close to the top two. He's not even competitive. But if you watch that replay, if you remember, he tossed 

his head a little bit early. I think he got a little bit more out of position than he probably wanted to be. Then he

was really wide on the far turn. And if you watch the last 16th or so, he was making up a little bit of ground. He was 

not stopping. Uh, I think he's a horse that uh has figured it out a little bit. 

I think whatever they did between the Belmont and the Jim Dandy was what they needed to do because he obviously ran 

his best race to date that day and then his development since then has been awesome and he's going to be a good 

price. Um, he's back on the West Coast where he's done some of his best running as well. I think he's he's very much so 

live. Um, I I tried to make a case for a lot of these. I I think um I'm sort of 

over Sierra Leone as a top win candidate play. I went back and watched the Jocking Cup Gold Cup and even though he 

had to deal with Irad on the ground, um the rabbit still did set that race up 

for him, he was closing, but Antiquarian was a little bit closer to that pace. I think he a little bit a little bit 

outran him to be honest with you. And uh I just think the price discrepancy is going to warrant the play. Would not be 

surprised if Sierra Leone wins. Uh, but Antiquarium would be my other creative idea. I'm just a little bit worried it's 

too creative now at I don't know what 10 12 to one. I thought he was really interesting at 20 and now I'm like man 

you're getting a little bit little bit too cute. I think he's a capable horse. I think he's sort of on the come if you will but now the price might be a little 

bit on the short side. No. So anyway, I'm I'm uh I'm Baya. I've got Knox against all the others. Uh even though I 

do think Fierc is the horse to beat. Yeah, I think we're going to end up touching on the majority of the field 

even if uh you guys landed on the same horse. Eddie, where are you heading in the classic? 

Uh I'm just going to go one end to the inside. I'm go with fierceness. Uh 

I think he's going to get an incredibly great trip. 

you know, I if I can I mean, obviously it's it's it's very disappointing to to 

not see sovereignty be able to run and uh you know, because it just seemed like 

uh he I thought journalism was breathing different air going into the Kentucky Derby and uh certainly he wasn't as high 

up he wasn't as high up in the clouds of sovereignty and you've seen what Bill Mott's uh uh three-year-old has been 

able to do in his short career. So hopefully he can get better and uh you know we'll see him fight another day. 

But but I just think that fierceness is uh he he the ability that you know what 

he showed in the Pacific Classic because in fairness to him he's he's always been I think an easy target where people have 

said well you know he hasn't got a trip you know he he didn't get it his own way he just packed it in and if he doesn't 

get here and you know he doesn't battle or whatever. Well, I think every he he proved everybody. I think when you think 

about what happened in last year's Breeders Cup Classic with Dermaki going absolutely crazy in the first half a 

mile in that race and then, you know, running as as well as he did in that 

race and then just, you know, ended up getting beat by Sierra Leon that day. And uh I just I just believe is that 

he's going to he's going to get the perfect trip. and coming off that last race 

ideally I don't think getting the rail I mean I think you know what's interesting now right it came down in the post position draw on I think that was Monday 

it came down to sovereignty and fierceness and sovereignty ended up 

getting number six and and ended up getting back on the rail and it's been well documented what happened to him 

Pacific Classic so I think Johnny V will be ready for that I think he gets I think he gets a golden trip and I think 

he gets the jump on the closer. So that's how I see it. And full disclosure, I mean, I'm I'm going to be all in uh in the tournament in the 

Breeders Cup betting challenge and my own personal account. I'm going to be all in on fierceness on top and I'm 

going to use two horses underneath. I'm going to use Sierra Leona seven and I'm going to use I agree with you guys. I'm 

going to be I'm going to try to uh eliminate journalism and forever young 

and I'm going to try to either 127 and if that's the case then we'll have to 

back up the the wheelbarrow because I'm going all in on in that one. A lot of baya love here and apparently 

what's become the John Churiff's appreciation corner. But um yeah, I you know I think the important point that 

you made about fierceness is that he is a horse that has justifiably been tagged as being one that kind of only showed up 

when you when he was able to play his game until the Pacific Classic. Again, I think that's a that's a key race as far 

as as him showing some some maturation and a step forward that I didn't really 

know he had in him. And you know, finally you saw him not really get a good outside stalking trip, have to get 

behind horses. He had his little thing early that people have overrated, but it was still of it was noteworthy. Um, and 

when Johnny V asked him around the turn, I mean, he just absolutely inhaled everybody and went on with it. I think

there's an argument to be made that as good as this horse is, he could possibly be a little bit better at Delmare. I 

mean, there's a there's a a case to be made for that. I don't really know how much it matters. He's a good horse, period. And I think he really gets the 

run of this race. I find the whole a lot of the whatever word you want to use to describe it, but the conversation about 

the rabbit to sort of be ridiculous because the rabbit's going to be in his own race and fierceness is basically going to be leading the rest of the 

pack, which is a pretty coveted position. All in all, I think he's clearly the horse to beat. I love the idea of taking a a mid-range price like 

Baza who, you know, probably ends up around eight or 10 to1 when all is said and done. I do think a lot of people are 

going to hone in on a great deal of what both Marshall and Travis said in terms of making a case for him. But one thing 

I wanted to get you guys both to weigh in on because I really think there other than Baza um and and fiercest there are 

probably five other legitimate contenders and Travis only mentioned Antiquarian the two 7 to2 shots Forever 

Young and Sierra Leone. These are horses that are really difficult reads to me in this race. Obviously, Sierra Leone has 

sort of earned himself kind of a bad reputation on social media and everywhere else because he's lost a lot, 

right? When you have a style like him, you're going to lose a lot. You're going to need a lot of things to happen for 

you in order to run well. Forever Young is the toughest read in the race to me by far, given the two races he's run, he 

ran earlier in the year, how great he was in the Saudi Cup, how dull he was in Dubai. But they've done the same thing

they did last year, which was get him to a prep in his native Japan. Which of these seven to2 shots, Travis, I'll 

start with you. Do you think is a more likely to win? And are you backing either one? 

Um I I'm just taking a stand against Sierra Leone in a spot like this. Uh with the huge setup he had last year, 

it's not like he won by five. He only beat Fierceness by a little bit less than two lengths. And I don't really 

know if he's moved a ton forward. Um, Forever Young is, in my opinion, a 

tremendously tricky read and is going to be all based on price. I do think there's a lot of quote wise guys are 

going to gravitate toward him. He's a known name. He's a Derby horse, a former Derby horse, so he's got a lot of 

popularity. I just don't like the long layoff, one prep into the Breeders Cup. 

And I've looked at a lot of data over the years of horses second off the layoff. they tend to get overb uh 

relative to their performance and their ultimate outcome and and I'm kind of hanging my hat on that a little bit. If 

he's going to be 3 to one, 7-2, if he's forgotten, for example, in drifts, I 

might become interested because he is a proven commodity. He didn't run all that bad last year. Um this year has been a 

little bit more in and out. Uh but he's certainly capable of bouncing back. I just don't I don't love the second off 

the long layoff pattern in a race like this. This is a very tough heat. You have to be 110% to win this one. There 

there's no wiggle room. Marshall, Sierra Leone and Forever Young, where do you stand? 

So, I I see Sierra Leone a lot like Travis does. I think, you know, I think 

he's a horse that Delmare doesn't fit really well. And I know that's that's weird to say post him winning the 

classic last year, but he got a great setup with a tremendous pace that was set. But Delmare doesn't really, you 

know, deep closer is a 946 ft stretch. I just don't think it fits his style and I 

don't see lightning striking twice. The other thing is I think because there's so clearly a rabbit this year that 

everyone's going to be thinking fast pace and and we might probably won't get it right. And so I I think that it's, 

you know, more likely to hold together and that's going to put him in in a bad position. So, I would lean towards 

Forever Young, but he also just strikes me as a bit of a grinder and one who's 

not really suited towards Delmare, who ran great last year, was close to the pace, really came running again, but he 

just strikes me as a horse that can run forever and may need more distance, not not this sort of, you know, very tight 

mile and a quarter at um Delmare. So, I am I am, you know, I would I would to 

answer your question to be forever young, but I'm I'm probably against both of them. Eddie, you mentioned that you'd be using 

Sierra Leone under fierceness in addition to Bayza. So, I'm guessing your affinity among this pair of Forever 

Young and Sierra Leone would be a little more in his direction. Care to share maybe a little bit about the why there? 

Well, I mean, I think the of understanding that uh Sierra Leon is 

is proven at Delmare and you know, Graham makes the great point of Marshall 

makes a great point of just the aspect of uh the you know, the short stretch at at at Delmare, but I I think 

going to be I think the pace is gonna be is getting more than honest. And I I 

think that if Sierra Leone and uh Flavian Pratt can make that move as 

early as he did the last time, he's going to he's has every chance to be running by horses that are turning for 

home. So uh Forever Young, I I mean I don't know. Um if you're playing 

trifectas and something, which I probably will. I mean, I got I will use him second and third just in case, you 

know, he he beats somebody and, you know, he he might be whatever, you know, he is the new morning line, you know, of 

seven to two is, you know, I don't want to have somebody that's maybe seven to one finish third out on it. So, uh, I 

respect Forever Young. I mean, it is a very competitive race, but for me, I'm a big believer of uh of horses for courses 

and and I I think you have to use Sierra Leone because I think most people I 

would argue, I shouldn't speak for anybody, I'm not, but I think it's going to be an honest pace and I want to know 

and I know that Sierra Leone is going to be run again. Will it be too late? We're 

going to find out. But I would bet more yes that he would hit the board than no. And I'm meaning, you know, second and 

third as far as hitting the board. No, that makes perfect sense. So, I I'm I was born to be a contrarian. So, I'm 

gonna offer a conflicting viewpoint on some of the things that have been said. I don't think I think the setup thing 

from last year's classic is overrated. Number one, the pace didn't come back at all. So, those numbers might look fast. 

The pace figures don't really bear that out. The other thing I would say is he was in third at the half mile poll 

basically. like he moved way earlier than he has in any other race where he's put in a meaningful run. Like juxtapose 

last year's classic against this year's Whitney. I think what I'm probably getting at is he's probably a slower 

horse now early, which is a problem, but he was really sharp in last year's classic. I don't think that version of 

him has ever really surfaced again. And I'd be worried that it even exists, but 

I don't think he won last year because he got some big setup. I think he was just I think he took what he had always 

been good at and did it better if that makes any sense whatsoever. The problem that he runs into this year is that 

there's just nobody to force things along, right? And I think two races are going to be going on. The fictional race 

where the rabbit is leading it and then the race with everybody else. And I don't think the pace in the race with everybody else is going to necessarily 

be good enough for him. I do feel like though, and this might not be popular with a 

bunch of people, I think he and Fierceness are basically on the same level talent-wise. Like, I don't think there's much separating them. That's why 

they've exchanged results on a number of occasions. And you're probably supposed to take the longer price of the two.

there's not going to be a big discrepancy, but and I know I'm in a way I'm sort of talking in circles, but I think a lot of the holes that people 

poke in Sierra Leone is because he laid all over horses as a three-year-old and he lost and he lost and he lost and he 

lost over and over and he really only showed up twice, right? He showed up in this year's Whitney and last year's classic and that was it. And I think 

there's a lot of stigma that's getting attached to that. But I do think he's a he's an underappreciated horse in terms

of his style is hard to win dirt route races. It's hard to come from deep in the pack over and over and run that 

great. So, that's just my soliloquy on Sierra Leone, who I think is as likely a winner of this race as fierceness. I 

really put them together in many ways. Um, perhaps I'll be proven wrong. Um, it happens quite frequently. So, one of the 

things that I wanted to ask all of you about individually is to me, Forever Young is the biggest challenge from a 

handicapping perspective. The most difficult horse to form an opinion on is Mind Frame. In my opinion, I don't like 

that we have not seen this horse basically run a complete race in four plus months. I think talent-wise, he's 

up there with anybody in here, if not more talented, but he just seems like a really hard horse to bet, especially at

six to one. What do you think of that, Marshall? Yeah, I I don't know what to I I don't 

know what to make of him. Um, and I'm going to I'm going to let him beat me. I mean, effectively, he hasn't he hasn't

run a race in in months. And so I, you know, I do think there's, you know, we we talk about this race holistically. 

You know, we have this rabbit, then we have the the other speed horses or these three pletcher horses. And so, you know, 

much like situations where we see, you know, one trainer has a lot of the field. They're good. They're not going 

to go three of them at the leader or three of them headto head. So, they'll be, you know, there should be some 

positioning involved, especially with two of them owned by Rapoli. So, um, so you know, again, that that does make you 

wonder about the pace and where they will each be, but you know, back to mind frame. Just just not for me at the 

price, right? I mean, he may be he may he may may win this, but there too many question marks for me. 

Travis, it's totally unfair. We're watching this replay without audio, but we can't have it in the background. You did call this race uh the Steven Foster, 

which he won earlier this year. You know, this is basically the last time we saw him. Obviously, it was a mile and an 

eighth. It looks like Sierra Leone's getting to him a little bit, but he ran very well. You give him any shots Saturday? 

I agree with what you said that I think he's probably pound-for-pound perhaps the most talented horse in the race. I 

wanted to see a prep off that Juggling Gum Gold Cup. Um, I'm surprised Todd 

Pleasure didn't ask me or ask you what what he thought he should do with a horse like mine frame. 

I missed his call and couldn't get him back. I sent him to voicemail. Uh anyway, uh I 

wish I I want I really was hoping to see a prep so we could get a better gauge. The one thing I've heard about Mind 

Frame that I don't buy into whatsoever is that he's not he might not be a 10 furong horse. And everybody just seems 

to forget when he was getting to door knock in the Belmont two years ago. Like he he was truly making up ground late 

and and by the way as a very lightly raced inexperienced horse. Um, he 

probably is, of all the horses in this race, if you're to win this race by two, would you be totally shocked? No, 

because I think he's got a world of talent. Uh, it's just probably not going to be with my money. Um, now again, 

price dependent. Let's say everybody has the same opinion and mind frames up on the board at 10 to one. I'm probably a 

little bit more interested. Um, but we'll just have to see that. But that would be my take. 

I think he'd win in the category in my opinion of the horse I'd most likely like like to send my mayor to um because 

I think he could be a very interesting stallion. But we'll let Marshall decide on that. Ultimately, he's the only one who's bred horses in this forsome. 

Eddie, what do you think of Mind Frames chances? I know you've given us already your bet and you've been very forthright 

with it and we appreciate it, but any consideration given to mind frame? 

No, because if he would have had Nick, if he would have had a prep, I probably would have played for a doctor to be 

honest with you. Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, I think I think he would have he would have 

answered a lot of questions. You know, I really wish he had just run him in the Woodward or the Lucas Classic. I think how each of them played out, he would 

have won very handily based on the winning speed figures and the way those races unfolded. So, it is just a little

bit unfortunate. I don't want to pay short shrift to journalism who was the Kentucky Derby winner and I think is a horse that amazingly is kind of not 

getting talked about at all in this race and and he's otherwise been really good and has had this incredibly admirable 

campaign. Uh Travis, you and I were talking a little bit about this earlier today. I I think there'd be a lot of 

satisfaction that goes into seeing journalism win. It just I I guess how much luster did he lose in that Pacific 

Classic and was it enough for you to say, "Yeah, he's just not at this level." I don't, you know, it's funny 

you say that because when we were talking earlier and the replay was up, he he did make a move. It wasn't like he

was it was just sort of flat. Um he was a little bit out of position relative to fierceness and he had to go wide. I do 

question whether or not he truly wants to get 10 furongs. And this is no knock on Reese Bully who's a very talented and 

capable rider obviously. Um, but maybe a change of scenery to maybe a little bit more of an aggressive rider like Jose

Ortiz will suit this horse a little bit and maybe they're able to find a little bit more with him. Um, and it's 

interesting as we have this conversation, I'm actually wondering of all the horses if he's the one that gets 

forgotten and then suddenly is no longer getting bet on because he has lost to a lot of these before. I got, you know, 

sovereignty is not in the race anymore. Um, so maybe he's the one that starts to drift a little bit. Uh but but yeah, 

he's he's a tricky read. I mean, I I he is such a beautiful mover. You have to 

think that there's still something there that he can offer and like you said, it's an admirable campaign. And you 

mentioned Nick and I didn't think it was a not nothing point is this is the first time he's coming into a race with a bit 

of a freshening. He's he's he's run quite a bit this year and he's been freshened up for this. So there's a few 

different things going on that might that might favor him a bit. 

Yeah. Yeah, you know, and it crossed my mind as well that the Connections could have just as easily not run him in the 

Pacific Classic, run him in a race like the Goodwood and had a little bit more time between the Haskell and the 

Goodwood, but this gave them more time between the Pacific Classic and the Breeders Cup. And if anything, I'm sure 

it was unintentional, they helped their price quite a bit by losing to fierceness the way they did. Marshall, what what does value to you on a horse 

like journalism look like? Could he even offer any in your opinion? I I think he could and I'm I'm with I'm with Travis. 

Really, when we think about Mindframe Baya journalism, there's there's like if they get lost in the betting, they could 

be a play. We none of us like Mindframe at six to one with the question marks. But if he were 12 to1, that's a 

different story, right? It's a different story based upon prices. We're willing to forgive things like not a prep race. 

And you know, journalism, especially I think with Sovereignty in the Field, I I really was certain was going to get 

lost. I love the fact that, you know, he's coming off now a two-month layoff, a long freshening. Uh, a lot of horses 

move forward. A lot of three-year-olds like this could move forward, could develop more, and um, at the right 

number, he'd be a player. I don't love him at five to one. I think I think he he's sort of huge variance. I wouldn't 

be shocked if he won. I wouldn't be shocked if he's so far off the pace and finishes sixth, right? Um, so so I'm not 

it it's just hard to tell what kind of race he's going to run, where he's going to be position-wise. Nothing would 

surprise me with him at the morning line. Um, at 5 to1, I I he's not for me. 

Um, but, you know, if he were to drift up, he would be interested to me. I also, you know, I I kind of like him 

underneath. I could I could see I could see using him a little bit underneath, but at 5 to1, he's too short in a win, 

too short of win price if that's where he ends up. So, let's say you're in a good position in the Breeders Cup betting challenge. 

We're getting down to the final four races. How are you uh how are you playing this? You don't have to be as specific as Eddie and saying exactly 

what you're going to bet, but how are you playing this race, Marshall? Well, it kind of depends on where I am and what the prices are, but I I will I 

won't go all in on Bayza, but if he's standing there at 10 to one and uh you 

know, I can make a substantial move with him, you know, he off it's such a good price. You know, the nice thing about 

having a price horse that you like, horses 10 to one, five grand at 10 to one puts me at 50 and then gives me a 

lot of options until the last three races. And so, in some ways, I see my Breeders Cup play, at least one of my 

tickets beginning in the classic, not ending in the classic. Uh, because then you have three more races to open things 

up where where you might have some ideas. And again, you start with Ba, put five of my 7500 there, get up to, you 

know, 50,000, then you have a lot of ways to work. So that's the great thing about liking a price. There's less of 

what you need to to make your goal. So So that's that's where I'd be looking. Maybe I'd play some certainly play some 

exact with BASA with journalism underneath to try to even make that pay out bigger. So that's at least kind of 

what I'm thinking right now. But but probably the classic will be the start of my day at least on one of my tickets.

Eddie, you mentioned you're going to go all in on fierceness. Would you take two to one on fierceness? 

Yes. Okay. That was what I expected. Uh well, I think we covered all our bases there, 

guys. Is there anybody anybody else? Uh and I'm I appreciate you keeping it succinct. Otherwise, we could have gone 

on and on. Um but, uh anybody else? I know we we touched on an Aquarian a little bit. Travis did. So, I didn't 

think we left anybody out. Nevada Beach obviously is going to be a big price. He's not impossible, but he's a horse I think that clearly has some talent is 

going to be moving forward. I would I would take futures on him in the 26 Breeders Cup Classic if possible 

depending on what we get next year, of course, with the three-year-olds, but he feels like a horse that's going to get a lot better as time goes by. So, let's 

move on to uh the mile and I will say in before I get into that, uh $10 Breeders 

Cup betback as well as the Breeders Cup betting guide available at Twinspires, the $10 betback on selected races. Get 

$10 in bonus bets for horses that you bet to win that run second or third. most of mine do. So, I would be able to 

really rack up the bonus bets there. And of course, the Breeders Cup betting guide is available at Twin Spires, an 

indepth look at all 14 Breeders Cup races that of course will begin on Friday uh in race number six on the 

Friday program, the Breeders Cup Juvenile Turf Sprint. Well, the final of our three scheduled races that we're 

going to talk about before we get into some individual races is the Breeders Cup Mile. And I got to tell you guys, 

I've seen some wideopen editions of this race. This to me is arguably as wide open as any I've seen. I know we have a 

5 to2 morning line favorite. I think there are a lot of holes to poke in him. That being notable speech, I thought 

this race was just tremendously interesting. And Travis, I'm going to let you lead off by taking us in the direction that you plan to go for this 

Breeders Scott Mile. I thought this race was exceptionally tough. Um, 

I think if if I look at this lineup of horses, there's about 10 of them that I think can win, and the other three would 

be surprising, but not um totally off the charts. I I don't know what the pace 

is going to do in here. I I think that's a legitimate concern, and I really tried to make a case for the outside horse to 

bust out of that gate, get over to the inside, and forget to stop. Uh I felt like the replay was a little bit weak in 

its uh most recent races. Um, and so given that I feel like the pace might be a little bit murky, I'm gonna take a bit 

of a closer as my top pick. Uh, and that's the 10. Jeanquil, Janquil, Jeanquil, 

I'm not sure I would said. Yeah, I have PTSD from the race at Keeland because some friends and I needed program trading for a real nice 

pick five. Anyway, um, if you look at the three horses coming out of that race, rhetorical, program trading, and 

uh, this horse, um, why is this horse so much worse than the other two? uh really 

had a stout late kick with a little bit of a wide trip going into the first turn. I thought Rhetorical got the run 

of the race. I'm against him. That probably would be one opinion I'm going to take to this race. Certainly respect

him and can win. I don't uh despise program trading. I think he's a major player. He'd be an A for me in this 

race. But if you watched his strength stretch kick, that's uh the horse on the far outside I'm talking about. He's 

gaining one to their uh he's gaining two to their one. That's legitimate late kick. He was way out of position. Um, 

he's one I'm most certainly interested in. I mean, I've got some others. I don't know how much you want me to rattle them off. I am going to use the 

Japanese horse who I think uh is really interesting. Um, and I I asked a friend 

who kind of gets involved with of numbers in terms of both domestic and international, believes in them all, and 

if you believe in them, the nine argene is uh very much so in the mix in terms 

of of of speed. And that horse could be a real price. Uh, so yeah, those are the kind of the two that I'm leaning toward 

with a little bit of program training. I'm gonna take a stab against notable speech. Certainly can win. It's going to be a short price. Um not entirely 

convinced that he's as good as he was last year. Uh the numbers this year, I mean, even though he won last time, he ran very well. The number wasn't as 

quite as stout. And this is just an evenly matched competitive group. And I want to take prices and and I'm I'm 

finding them all. Yeah. I think uh on Tuesday I taped a 

segment for Twinspires with Mattie Plle, a really uh heavy look at some of the European invaders and Mattie made the 

point that I think is important about Jean Kill which you just did as well Travis is that he was out of position last time. It was way too far back. He's 

not not supposed to be nearly that far back and getting his regular rider Colin Keane, with all due respect to Dylan 

Davis, I think having Colin Keane on board um is definitely going to help a great deal. Now he has an an un a 

different trainer, same owner situation with Kiraat on the outside who is actually a horse that is at his best 

going forward. And so you almost wonder if each of them respectively doing what they're best at might complement each 

other's running styles perfectly because Kirat was a a huge upset winner of the Sussex earlier this year at 150 to1 in 

wire-to-wire fashion. I don't quite think he'll be 150, but he'll be up there uh this time around. So you touched on obviously some of the 

principles uh in this affair. Eddie, where are you headed in the Breeders Cup Mile? 

Well, I'm hoping I'm alive uh from the Breeders Cup Classic into the Turf Mile 

and I'm I'm going to eat chalk. I I I was up at Woodbine for notable speeches 

run in the the Woodbine mile two and visually I thought in person that's 

probably why I'm uh probably hookline and sinker. I thought it was just absolutely an impressive uh finish as as 

as we're watching right here on the outside with with William Buick. I thought had plenty of more left in the 

tank. I don't want to say look at the the field was good. It wasn't it wasn't anything outstanding. Let's just call it 

what it was. But uh do I want to say it was a tuneup? Yeah, I I guess it was probably an appetizer getting ready for

this race on on Saturday. Uh, so for me, I'm probably going to end up picking Notable Speech. I'll take seven to five, 

I'll take eight to five, whatever it ends up being. But the one horse I think is uh really interesting is the New York 

Red and number 11. This horse just seems to be going to a 

different level here. And I I think will definitely be a horse that I will use underneath second and third depending on 

how I end up playing this race. I know I know the morning light of five to one and I think I I think you're going to 

get every bit of five to one. I don't know what you guys think on historical but because it seems like in a lot of 

these races the the European influence will take a lot of money so maybe some other uh prices will be inflated a 

little bit in a positive way if you like it. So that's how I'm kind of looking at it. If I get anything north of 9 to2 or 

5 to one ontorical uh I will certainly be using as well. But, uh, I'm going to 

eat the chalk in backto back races and we'll see how it all plays out. Marshall, kind of a two-part question 

for you. Not only of course, who do you like in the mile, but the Kilmore turf mile? Travis touched on it, Eddie just 

mentioned it as well as a key prep for this race. Who's the horse that you'd be looking to take out of there from kind

of a trip handicapping perspective, letting pace influence it a little bit as well. So, who again would you take 

out of the Coolar Turf Mile? And more importantly, who do you like in this race? So I I I would I'm with Travis 

that I thought um John Ke ran the best race. I thought the rhetorical had a great trip. So those are those are the 

two main notes I came out of it that John Ke, you know, again broke from the 11 post was wide and then made one big 

late run. So he's the horse out of that race that that I would prefer of all those of all those horses. I'm going to 

go I'm going to go local and I'm going to stay in California. I'm going to go with Johannes. I I um you know I'm 

hopeful that I get eight to one. Uh you know I I don't I can't quite figure out his fourstar Dave seemed like a lot went 

wrong that that he may have even self-inflicted in those in that race. His other races this year have been 

strong last year. He translated his uh you know California turf form into um 

into the Breeders Cup mile with a with a big effort there. And I I just see this this the same way. in his last prep 

race. I thought he was finishing with elacrity. Um and and it just seems to set him up perfectly for I think another 

big effort here. Um a year more a year more mature. Uh I you know I like I like 

Rispully on the turf. Uh and so um he's a horse at this price. Um I feel very 

comfortable with and I feel very comfortable with making a decent sized play. Um as well I think this is an 

interesting fairly wide openen race. Um, you know, I do totally respect Notable Speech, but um but at the at the price 

difference, and I think Notable Speech will be all of that 5 to2, if not shorter. Um, you know, I'm going to I'm 

going to go with Johannes and uh and you know, maybe maybe look for some other price horses as well. I I I did think

also that um the Japanese horse was just intriguing. You know, we go from a year 

where last year Japanese horses were all the rage to where this year they might 

not get bet at all. It's just, you know, it's interesting how we're quick to to to jump on the the trend and then jump 

off it and and this one, you know, it seems to be maybe the the the one of the 

most talented ones they brought here outside of and forever young, I don't even count, right? Because he's a you know, he's competed internationally. So, 

yeah, he's he's been naturalized. Um, but yeah, I I agree. I think Johannes is incredibly interesting. And as much as I 

wanted to kind of tag him as not as good as last year, the city of Hope Mile was every bit as good as the best races he 

ran last year. So I went back and watching it and thought to myself, you know, draw a line through the four-star Dave, he got beat up around the turn, 

totally out of position. It is the ultimate throw out race. I thought he bounced back very nicely and he's just been too good locally to be overlooked 

in here. Uh I like Salon in this race who comes over from France for Francis 

Enri Grafard who's in the middle of an unbelievable year. And this is the kind of horse, Travis alluded to it a little

bit with Amalok earlier in the turf. This is the kind of Euro I want to bet, right? This feels like a horse that is 

now getting to his destination and his win last out in the pred which is a race 

that over the history of the Breeders Cup mile has been very influential in terms of turf of European invaders that 

have run well. It was a sustained bid from off the pace. Now, one of the problems he's going to have undoubtedly 

is similar to what a lot of them in here will have in that he's going to have to make up a lot of ground and there is not 

an overwhelming amount of pace in here. It looks a little bit like the 21 mile where uh Smooth Like Straight was trying 

to wire at Space Blue sat second and just wore him down. If that's the case, then obviously I'll be in big trouble 

with Salon. Uh, but I'm I'm thinking that this far out with people talking about the pace, there are going to be 

some jockeyies that maybe alter a little bit of their their running style and um and and I think that could be enough. 

Sal also doesn't have to be that far off of it. I do think they'll outsprint him to an extent early, but he exits that 

race. So too did the Lion in Winter who uh is going to break one door to his outside this time around. Aiden 

O'Brien's 1 for 29 lifetime in the Breeders Cup mile. sort of an unbelievable statistic. And ironically, 

the only winner was Order of Australia at about 10,000 to one in the 2020 Breeders Cup mile. A race that I'm sure 

and routes to the Breeders Cup Betting Challenge victory. You did not hit the mile, Marshall. I can almost be certain of that. So, yeah, we'll see if the line 

of winter can run a little bit better. He's got a little bit of speed. I did want to ask you guys pacewise. I mean, 

we're guessing on a lot of these Euros. Obviously, Kirat has a lot of speed. The 13 probably doesn't give him a whole lot 

of options. He's going to have to go. Are you worried at all pace-wise? Obviously, Marshall, you like Johannes, 

you're probably not that worried. You like him a little bit better in a slower paced race, right? 

Yeah. I I think he's a super track. Well, I think look, it's a big enough field that someone's going to have to 

someone's going to have to go. So, I'd be just shocked if it were a crawl. I just like it's it's just a numbers game 

um with these horses whether they want to go or not with 13 of them as they hustle for for position. So, I you know, 

I think the pace will be honest. You know, will it be fast? That's a different question, but I think it would be honest. I'd be shocked if they crawled around the track. 

Eddie, one thing I'm sure you noticed being at Woodbine for the Woodbine Mile is Gaddafin had taken a couple of losses 

on that card already in the 2-year-old races where it felt like William Buick had a little too much to do. He 

noticeably got after Notable Speech early to keep him closer. I would imagine that makes you feel even more 

confident coming into this. Yeah, 100. And I think that particular 

day, the 13th of September on the inner turf course at Woodbine, that was uh 

that was the place you wanted to be. I mean, he got into the right part of the racetrack, which probably about three or 

four off the rail and just absolutely again, I I think he just was uh was well 

in hand and and but again, I think, you know, I don't want to say turf at 

Woodbine and Delmare are similar, but I mean, you know, it it is 

I mean, the tighter, you know, the tighter type of turns I think I I think he proved that he can certainly handle 

that and then he can get moving on those. He was starting to move as they were starting on the turn. So, I think 

that that's an opportunity to get accelerating and be able to, you know, to scramble home. The one thing I will 

say, I think I think Jose Ortiz on Gas Me Up will be right there because when 

when you go back and watch that race coming from the outside in the Woodbine Mile, he did get to the 

rail and I mean, he ran his he ran his eyes out there on on not the greatest part of the track. So, I think that you 

talk about the pace of the race. I agree with you. I think it is a little murky. I don't think it's going to be lightning 

quick and I I don't think they're going to be walking, but I think you're going to see some jocks get a little aggressive because I think they probably 

see what we see. But I think gas me up will be one of those. I'd be shocked if if Jos Ortiz is not first or second 

there uh when they uh they break under the wire for the first time. Travis, you mentioned a 10 to one shot 

that you liked in John Kill. Uh formidable man is a 10 to one shot that has an unblenmished record at Delmare. 

Is this one of those where we look back a couple of seconds after this race and realize this horse is just a little bit 

different at Delmare? He doesn't look good enough, but it is gotten beyond just a curiosity that he's this good at 

Delmare, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he's run very well and and each of them in overcoming uh some 

suboptimal paces in his most two recent races. In my opinion, they're just I feel like they might be a notch below. 

But there also does seem to be this a theme with this race that it's a little bit even and open and that opens the 

doors for a lot of horses. Um I'm going to look at him. I I don't like him at 10 to1. I I need more on him. I mean, put 

it this way, him at 10 to1 versus Johannes at 8:1. It's not even close. No. Right. I mean, that it's so doesn't work 

for me. Uh the only other one that a big long shot I thought I thought one stripe ran ran well at Woodbine. uh probably 

needed that race and uh could maybe come on for a little bit of a piece as well at huge odds, but uh that's a bit of a 

stretch. I think I think the ones we've talked I think we've hit on the major players. Yeah, I heard Graham Motion tell 

Michelle Yu that he felt like he probably chose too tough a spot for one stripe to make his North American debut, 

but did think that he would not only be more involved this time around, I believe he used the word tickled with 

the draw, which is something that people of the English persuasion would probably use as a descriptive word. Uh guys, I 

think we covered just about every base here. Anybody have anything else they wanted to add on the mile? 

All right. Well, now we'll get into some of the individual races that we're looking forward to most. And I'm going 

to start by uh having Eddie tell us about the Breeders Cup Turf Sprint that will go as race number five on Saturday

afternoon. Eddie, who do you like in the turf sprint? 

Well, I think I think we would agree. Uh there is a lot of 

Yeah. Um, and to me, I'm gonna I'm gonna go 

back in the archives here. I I was all over Arizona Blaze last year in the 

juvenile turf sprint and uh didn't have the greatest trip uh but ran really well 

at 27 to1. So I I got to go I got to go right back. I I I 

blaze in the turf for going five furongs. Uh sitting behind the pace I 

think could be tackled. It seems that um that he has been much more 

closer to the pace as he's gotten a little bit older. Obviously last year he was two, now he's three. some of his 

races he's much more forward, but I don't think that he the the quickness uh right out of the gate 

to be up there with a couple of the horses that I think are going to be front. So, uh not 27 to one this year, 

but I will take every bit of five to one on Arizona plays and uh try to pick up the pieces. I guess I'm probably 

happy that Notorious ended up getting on the inside because it's I think it's going to be difficult to be able to, you 

know, swing out and and and make the big move. But I I'm worried about Notorious. I am. So, I feel a little bit more

confident Arizona plays being in a good spot. So, that was one of my stronger plays. Uh, I would put I would put that 

right up with fierceness of how how I feel and how I am going to attack the Breeders Cup Turf Sprint, which is race 

five on Saturday. Five to one. And you remind us of your ability to find a horse at a decent price. I think five to one would be fine 

on him. I like him as well. Thought that flying five was a really big bounceback race. And Mattie Ple brought that up on 

the the show we did the other day. Uh, Marshall, any thoughts on the turf sprint? 

Uh, no. Uh, I may I I'll I'll be watching it, but I will not uh I will not be betting it. I you know, these 

these are these are tough races, a lot of fast horses. Uh uh one mistake by a jockey or one stumble and and it's over.

So, uh um again, and nothing nothing jumps off of me that off the page to me. And the one thing about betting the 

Breeders Cup, it's just as it's just a it's just as good not to bet a race that you don't have any any you don't feel 

you know anything about, right? So, that's uh that's one I'll enjoy watching, but I probably won't have a dollar through any horse. 

Watching the replay back of this race last year, the the winning rides, the top three rides on those horses on on AG 

Bullet, Notorious, and uh and Starust, I mean, obviously, there was a little bit less that the rider had to do with a 

horse like AG Bullet, but the rides on Star Lust and Notorious were just unbelievably good. I mean, those horses are both on the rail going around the 

turn. Starust is last. That is I I will I will die on the hill of that being one of the greatest Breeders Cup rides I've 

ever seen. That was incredible. Travis, are you getting involved in this turf sprint at all? No, but I think it's worth noting what 

you just said. It's like if you go back and watch a lot of BC replays at Delmare, that inside move is the move. 

We mentioned it today with Pizza Bianca. Um if you in fact the jockey cam of Pizza Bianca is one of the coolest 

racing videos I think in the history of the game. uh you can see and as as a race watcher you can actually feel the 

tension of like what's he going to do from here and he just commits to the inside. You pick up so much ground doing 

that at Delmar. Um and for for me at the race of the turf sprint it's just so high variance. I think you run that race 

a 100 times. You get a ton of different results and I I'll uh I'll take a a pass on it. 

Yeah, it'll be a fun race to watch. Definitely one uh one with plenty of intrigue. No question about it. Obviously, now we all have a rooting 

interest with Eddie looking to shoot up the leaderboard in the Breeders Cup betting challenge with Arizona Blaze. Marshall, you wanted to touch on the 

Philly and Mayor Sprint, the first Breeders Cup race of the Saturday card, which goes as race number four, and a 

pretty darn good race on paper in its own right, which I think is a lot more competitive than maybe that morning line would lead you to believe. 

Yeah, I think I think there's a number of different ways to look at it. You could you could look at it maybe as a race where the pace will me melt down 

and look for a closer. I think the Copian defection raises a lot of questions. I don't totally know what to 

make of Copian running in the sprint and what it means for Tamara, what it means 

for Copian herself. I I just I think that's that's an interesting issue. Copian um showed no speed last time out 

going two turns and now they're cutting back to six furongs. Uh I I'm not sure 

I'm not sure why why they're running there. I'm wondering if there's an easier out. Um, if they lose the sprint, 

it's no big deal. If they lose the Philly, they lose the Philly Mayor sprint. Um, it's maybe more of a black 

mark against her. Uh, so it's just I I think the cut back and the fact she 

showed no speed last time is interesting. Or is she not running here because of Tamara? Because they want 

Tamara to be in her glory. Um she's a horse that everyone has always wanted to 

be good. Um being um out of beholder. Uh and so look, her last race is great. I'm 

not sure who she beat. Uh she ran a big number. Uh maybe if you work with the 

reasoning that that that Copian's a monster and and they're clearing the way for Tam Tammer to win this race or the

Tamar's a monster, they're clearing Copian out and they're going for both races. Um I'm going to be anti- Tamara. 

I think I'm moving in that direction thinking that um that uh this is a little more hype than reality. I also 

just don't know about Sweet Aztec and and getting this getting the seven furlongs under pressure. There's no 

doubt a horse like Holland Ice is going to go. Um and there there other horses here that are going to want to to be 

right up on the pace. Um Rishi as well. So, you know, I mean, you know, if if if 

there three really fast horses in Tamara um and Sweet Ass Tekk and then Hope 

Road's the third one, I'm going to go with the third one and Hope Road hopefully is the longest price. I don't know whether, you know, longest price on 

the morning line. Maybe that won't be the case. Maybe four to one is is is wishful thinking, but I think I think 

this horse is going to sit the right trip from the outside being able to pounce on the dueling horses in front of 

her and uh hold off the closers. And so I'm going to take Hope Road and then maybe try to use one of the closers 

underneath um at a price. I mean, you know, like even Vava at 12 to1, uh, 

Splendor, ZeitLos maybe even at at 40 to1, um, could hit the number if it 

should really fall apart. So, um, so I'm hope road here. I don't, you know, again, like I'm saying, as far as 

Breeders Cup betting challenge is concerned, I'll run some money through here, but I'm going to keep a lot preserved for, um, the last four races 

of the card. Um, this is just more of an interesting anti-opinion against some of 

the top horses here. Eddie, did you have any Philly and Mayor Sprin opinion? 

Uh, I agree with Graham. Tamara to me will be a much uh much use on all of my 

different wages that I will have on on Saturday. 

If I was picking, I probably would would would pick Hope Road uh on top, but I'll 

be playing a couple of uh gimmicks there. I I see the race the same way that Graham does. He makes great points, 

so no reason to uh elaborate anymore. I I thought with Copian deciding to go 

into the the dirt sprint, uh I think this opened up the door for the other Mandela and uh I think that race in the 

ballerina for Hope Road uh back in August was super impressive for me. So 

uh going to bet a Baffford Mandela Exact and you know hopefully get somewhere in 

that 14 to $15 range. Got to be collectively 20 plus Breeders Cup wins between those two trainers 

quite easily I would think. Travis, what about your Philly and mayor sprint thoughts? Uh, I'm all on the book ends here, but I 

uh ZeitLos to the hoop somewhere. How How does Zitlo not get a piece of this? I mean, this race has to be insane 

early. You've got a a bunch of one-way speeds and b a bunch of horses are going to press them from behind, and there's

really nobody that wants to come from behind except for Zeitlo. So, I'm I'm all Zylo to the hoop somewhere. I am 

going to respect Praying, though. I think Praying's a good horse and I think she's coming around at the right time. While I think some of these others have 

questions, I like the post draw for her and I love the ride the rider. I think Johnny B is the perfect uh pilot for a 

horse like this. She's going to be a huge price. Might not be good enough. This might be a Breeders Cup too soon for her, but I think she's second to 

last early and could easily sneak into the ticket as well. Um yeah, I'm going Zylo somewhere. I Zylo could easily win 

this race and I'm also a little sour because I know that you did too. I bet her in Saratoga and I still want that 

money. Yeah. Yeah. I I sent in my picks today and I picked her. I I can't help myself. 

I just I have to bet the lone real closer in a race that's loaded with speed and I love Joelle getting on her. 

He's such a good fit for a horse with this style. I I think the the biggest 

thing I I fear that we're going to run into is that one of these Baffford horses is going to stay close to the 

pace and stay on and that we're not going to be able to run them down. So, I'm going to have a bunch of Zeitos, Under Hope, Road, Reachi, and Splendor. 

I actually think those three horses are pretty close to equal on paper and I think any of them can win. And the only 

other horse that I think is a real winot is Tamara. So I can use praying and sprinkle her in a little bit maybe in

the second spot of a try. But yeah, I mean I I've even watching the TCA backyos got into real trouble turning 

for home. Had to angle in. Still finished a little bit. Um oddly she's an off the- pace horse, an off the- pace 

sprinter that's a little bit better at six historically than seven. A lot of those seven furong races were earlier in her career. So I don't want to hold it 

against her, but yeah, I mean I I can't I can't not use the really the the biggest closer in in a race loaded with 

speed. Uh because they're going to absolutely fly in here, right? I mean, Sweet Estka and Holland Ice next to each other, they have to go. I don't like 

Sweet Ezeka. I don't like these by appointment only horses that run every whether it's not two months, it's 10 

months. And I just feel like those two lowal races have really sort of seduced 

a lot of people. I know she ran fine in the Rancho Bernardo, but if she is in this race and she goes out and gets the 

lead and she fights all the speed off and she holds the late runners off, I'll happily lose my money. I cannot possibly 

envision that happening and I would never take it at the price that she's going to be. But it's a fun way 

obviously to kick off the uh Saturday Breeders Cup action. We have actually not spoken at all about Friday Breeders 

Cup action and there are five Breeders Cup races on Friday. Travis, I know you wanted to talk a little bit about the 

Juvenile Phillies turf and we have some bonus footage. Credit to the producer here coming up of the uh Breeders Cup 

Juvenile Phillies turf. Where are we who are we talking about in there? I just I find um you know the 

conversation about precise is she's a borderline deity at this point. Uh I mean everybody has like effectively said 

they're singling her, they're locked in on her, she loses, I lose, yada yada 

yada. That's a horrendous post position. And and and and I'm going to credit my 

girlfriend Olivia for pointing this out. Sumion is the the go-to rider for Aiden O'Brien. One of them for sure. and and 

he didn't get on this Philly until several starts into her career and in fact rode other horses running against 

some of his horses, I think she kind of snuck up on them a little bit. And while she was spectacular in a few of her

races, this is a tough uh this is a tough situation. I mean, she's going to have to be exceptional. And I got to be

honest with you, I think she's almost sub even money. I think she's could be even four to five. That's how much 

people are talking about her. I just the contrarian horse player in me wants to shop around a little bit and I think

Ultimate Love is going to get a little bit overlooked because the racetracks that she's been running at don't exist 

in New York, they don't exist in Kentucky and they don't exist in California. She has been very good in 

virtually all of her races. Um maybe a little bit against the track in some of them, overcoming some paces in some of 

them. And if you watch her stretch kick, she has legitimate late speed. And this 

is a beautiful post position juxtaposed against the complete outside posts that the four to five favorite's going to 

have. She's going to be tucked inside with Johnny V. We've talked about the benefits of being down inside on this 

turf course. And and numbers wise, I don't think she's that far off almost 

anybody. And I think she's going to offer value. And so to me, it was like totally respect precise. At the end of 

the day, if I can't hit a pick five on Friday because Precise wins and I can't connect the right dots, whatever, we've

got Saturday to go and there's plenty of of more opportunities down the road. But to me, this is the race I am going to 

take a shot against Precise just because I think she's going to be an underlay. She is way way way the horse to beat. 

But that's a brutal post position. It's not a mount and eighth. There's not a long run to the first turn for this. Get 

position, get it quick. It's going to be tough. Yeah, the sheet numbers on Ultimate Love 

came back really fast and you can sort of tell here around the turn of the Selma Y because she did make that 

prolonged three-wide move. U some of the form coming out of here has been okay. The uh Britney Russell also ran the 

sweet little Laya came back and duplicated her speed figure next time out at Aqueduct. So, I don't think 

there's anything to be terribly worried about. And again, as you alluded to, postposition wise, it is pretty tough to argue with uh with the inside draw for 

Ultimate Love. Marshall, do you you have any opinion on precise? And I know these races aren't really your cup of tea, but 

can you see yourself getting involved in in the juvenile Philly turf? No, I I I I don't have a strong opinion, 

and it's a race that I would probably play a minimum if I play at all. But it's it's it's again in these kind of 

races, it's going to be it's tough to take a short price horse. Um and uh so 

so again, I'll I'll be I'll be watching and either minimum or I'll pass along. I like um I like the logic behind Travis's 

selection and you know I think there you know there's some decent prices here that uh um that you know could move 

forward and win this race. Yeah, no question about it. Um obviously one of them of course being Ultimate 

Love and I think we're going to get a little bonus footage coming up of Ultimate Love. So this is the workout 

from Fair Hill which we were given uh by Mike Trombetta's assistant. That is 

Ultimate Love in the orange jacket. I'm glad that Blaze reminded me it was the orange jacket considering one of them is a chestnut and the other one's a gray. 

He forgets I also call racist, so I can definitely determine which is which. He's he's saluting me now as I bring 

that up. But yes, Ultimate Love is on the outside in the orange. And you know guys, this is actually a fun topic 

actually to bring up. I don't know how much any of you do it. I I'm I'm a very novice workout watcher, but I am finding 

myself watching way more workouts now that they're more readily available. Travis, have you integrated any of that 

uh into your handicapping approach for this year's Breeders Cup? I think part of the problem is everybody else is doing it now, too. So, I don't 

know if you can really get an edge. And let's be honest, these are however many 

races, 140 of the best horses in the country, if not the world. Like, they're 

going to look good cuz they are good, you know. Um to me, it was it workouts 

is always about comparing how they looked 3, four weeks ago to how they look today. in the context of their 

pattern and their form. But, um, I really think you can get hung up on them. Unless you see what they do every 

single morning and you know their habits, you know their quirks, you know the trainer style and what they're looking for, I think you're kind of 

wasting time. Um, they're in this race for a reason and uh it's cuz they're 

good and they're doing well. They wouldn't be in there otherwise. So, I to me I'm a little bit uh I'm punting on 

workouts. Eddie, being a former professional athlete, you can tell us, right? You 

always gave it your all in practice. It was always always always just as much effort in practice as a game, right? 

Uh, no. 

That was the same bet. No one 

I I will I will say uh there was a time I was playing I was playing in Toronto 

and uh we got our heads hand to handed to us the night before I think we lost 

like seven to two and our coach at the time the late John Broofphy 

uh we were practicing and he called everybody uh uh 

in in the round of scrum after we you We got our heads handed us the night before. So, it was uh yelling and 

screaming. I know this is a G-rated show, so I won't say verbatim what he said, but he pretty much called me out 

and said, "Uh, old check. What's your problem?" I go, "Uh, I'm sick and 

tired." He goes, "Well, I'm sick and tired of losing." Beep beep beep beep. And then we got back to practicing. Next 

thing you know, about 45 minutes later, we were uh we were drinking from the uh we were drinking from the trough, you 

know. So, it was one of those where uh we call it back skating. I'll leave that 

to imagination. So, yeah, that was one of the harder practice that I had in my 16 years in Michigan. 

You needed it here and there, I'm sure. But, uh well, that was a good look at Ultimate Love in the workout. And I mean, again, following up on a little 

bit of what Travis is saying, you know, we don't see what she does normally in the morning. She blew the doors off that horse, right? We don't know anything 

about who that horse even was, but obviously she looked good. So yeah, it's it's a little bit like watching one game 

and making a determination about an entire team. And you know, I was like, yeah, you probably need a little more context than that, but there are a lot 

of workout uh related uh uh reports that are available for the Breeders Cup, but 

uh I'm looking forward to this Juvenile Phillies turf. Aiden O'Brien, of course, we're not going to discuss it at length 

or really at all, but he'll also have Dashad as the heavy favorite in the Juvenile Turf a little bit later who's 

breaking from post 14. he might not be quite as vulnerable because he has a little bit more early speed, but the the 

pills were not friendly to Aiden O'Brien in Friday's races whatsoever. Well, the race that I wanted to discuss now that 

each of you have brought up one in addition to the three that we covered is the Breeders Cup Sprint, which is on Saturday afternoon. Uh it goes as race 

number six. And a horse that I've been touting for quite some time is the 10 Ben Tornado. This is a horse that Travis 

called winning the Louisville Thoroughbred Society back in September. I will admit I never really had a great

amount of affinity for this horse and I was intrigued to see how he'd run in this race and uh I thought he was 

outstanding. This was just to me everything you wanted to see from a maturing later developing four-year-old. 

He came back off the break. He was professional. You know, I understand that there's the Skellyy that runs at 

Oakland and the Skellyy that runs everywhere else, but that that race could have been at Oakland and he would have blown Skelly's doors off, right? I 

mean, he just left him for dead at the 316 poll. Pulled away one nicely. Durant came out of there, ran fine in the 

Phoenix. Granted, here my song didn't come out and run all that well. I don't think it matters. I think Ben Tornado is in an ideal spot, breaking from the 10. 

If I had it all, I would wish that that Straight No Chaser and Madhouse were inside of him and he could kind of set 

up outside. But to me, this looks like one of the likeliest winners of the entire weekend and perhaps the likeliest winner of the entire Saturday card. I I 

just love the way he's coming into it. From what I've seen of him on track, he's looked outstanding. So, I would uh 

I would definitely make one of the focal points for me wagering wise on this card. Ben Tornado. Anyone want to chime 

in with a Breeders Cup Sprint opinion and uh tell me why I'm wrong? I'd love to hear it. 

I got nothing. I loved this race at Churchill. I loved him last year. Yeah, I I think he's the I think he's the one

to beat. Yeah, you liked him when the price was right. No doubt about it. Marshall, you were talking a little bit about Copian 

earlier and kind of wondering why she ended up here. Would you have liked her maybe with a better post? The rail seems 

tough to take with her. I I would have liked her in the D staff. I would have liked her in the Philly Mayor turf. I you know, maybe I'll have 

more insight in terms of coming out of a route race not showing speed and then 

cutting back to six furongs. you know, that's not I don't see it unless you see 

this race coming apart and and I don't think these are these type of quality horses um are going to keep in my mind 

are going to keep running. So, I'm with you on Ben Hernado. I I feel very confident in him and I think he may be, 

you know, I think he may get five to two because because Copian's numbers um look 

great on paper, right? Copian has great sheet numbers and I think there's a lot of buzz around her. I just I don't see 

it at all. And so I'm willing to be completely wrong on her. Um I I I I'm just worried she's going to be too far 

back. I know even stretching, you know, I I get the cut back, but I just don't know what it means for a horse that that 

showed no speed out last time. Yeah. I mean, maybe that 33 and change workout is going to get her ready 

because uh they're they're obviously needing to put more speed into her. No question about it. Eddie, any Breeders Cup Sprint thoughts? 

Yeah, I just I I mean I I think we touched on a little bit earlier, but I 

for them to for team Mandela to make this move, I think on the surface, at 

least for the last couple of days, and again, you hear a lot of things, you talk to a lot of people, you know, we're 

we're having this live stream. just on the surface like for for him to 

take her out of the Philly and mayor where she would have been the favorite, right? Would you guys agree with that? 

Yeah. So, as as we brought up earlier, I think 

Graham, you made mention, are they taking Copian away from Tamra or are they taking, you know what I mean? Are 

they you know what I mean? like that. That's where I just I that's where I'm kind of going because I want to use the 

I want to use the Philly. I do without a doubt. Like if I was in the show right now on I was on NBC right now, I 

probably would take the Philly. I agree with you guys. That last race, you wonder why she didn't show any speed in 

that race. And yes, she closed, but it was almost one of those like 

why would they cut her back like this and not think that she would be 

very competitive against the boys in this race? You I guess I'm just throwing it out there against the wall and trying 

to, you know, get inside the mind of of a a Hall of Fame. Yeah, it is tough. I you know, I kind of 

was pulling for her to run in the in the D staff. actually thought her Clement Hirs was uh was definitely good enough 

and I didn't think there was much between her and Seismic Beauty that day. So, I would have bet her at a mile and an eighth. I'll tell her I'll tell you I 

would have been more interested in betting her in there than I am in here and I think Marshall kind of said that and I totally agree. Um especially the 

way that race looks like it's going to set up on paper, but this one I think will set up well for Ben Tornado. Even with the speed to his outside, I think 

he's going to get a good trip from up close. I think there are some interesting late running types that can get a piece of it too. I think both 

Lovesick Blues and Nakatomi are going to be pretty decent prices that can fill in some of these exotics and what should be 

a really fun Breeders Cup Sprint. Well, of course, we encourage all of you to wager along with this Breeders Cup at 

twinspireers.com. Gentlemen, it has been uh my pleasure. Remember the $10 betback and the 

Breeders Cup betting guide, both available at Twinspire. So, uh, once again, thank you to the three of you for 

spending this Wednesday night with us and hopefully sharing some good insights for everybody out there. For those of you who sat through it, we admire you 

even more. Hopefully, it was worth it and I think it definitely was based on all the ground we were able to cover. 

Eddie and Marshall, good luck in the Breeders Cup Betting Challenge. Of course, Travis, you have plenty of races to call at Churchill and good luck there 

as well. I'll just stay quiet and do my thing on Saturday. See you guys. Appreciate it. 

Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. And once again, thank you to all of you for Eddie, Travis, and Marshall. Nick 

Tamaro here. Be sure to play along with us at twinspires.com. Take advantage of those promos. And until next time, best 

of luck. 

[Music] Well, thank you all. That was great. 

All right. Yeah. Good stuff, guys. We'll see you.